PPD is the COMPLETELY dysfunctional and unethical

[172542]

OK. I went to PPD & screened, told that I passed the screening, went back for the physical, passed that and told to check in. Finally it comes time for the study and they call me the MORNING OF CHECK-IN and tell me that my heart rate on the ECG was 1 BPM too low and that I don't qualify for the study. They just so happened to have glossed over that until the morning I was supposed to check in. And I came from out of state so their negligence ended up costing me hundreds of dollars in lodging while I stayed in Austin waiting for check in when, had they done their due diligence I could had immediately scheduled another screening or driven back home. They did, however, give me a VIV (Very Important Volunteer) Pass.

So, I finally use my VIV pass a week before it expires. I pass the screening, wait 7 days (!) and finally get the physical done and pass the physical. Said all the lab work and, heart rate, blood pressure etc was great and they tell me to check in. The study I used my VIV for had 1 outpatient visit 4 days after check out. A couple of days later they call and tell me that the study doctor has decided not to use me in the study because of the potential risk that I would not come back for the outpatient visit since I am from out of state! At this point I am seething mad and file complaints with Subject Relations. The whole point of the VIV Pass is that if you pass all screening procedures and the physical and your blood work is good at check in then you automatically make it into the study. They throw this all out the window and don't let me check in to this study because they think I might not show up for the OPV! COMPLETE BS. 

After the aforementioned second fiasco, they return my VIV to me and I decide to give it one more try on a $6,000 study. Again, I pass the screening and physical and am told to check in. This time (shockingly) I actually got to check in (I know, right?). And although I did make the study, I witnessed two other people fall victim to PPD's dysfunctional madness. The first two subjects who assumedly had the best labs. You know how they do the blood draws the day before to make sure your labs are still good? Yeah. The people doing the blood draws "forgot" a tube on the first TWO subjects so the next morning the study coordinator informed that they cannot dose in the study because they do not have all of the necessary data.

There is some kind of corruption and unorganization and dysfunction going on at PPD I tell you what. Sure, they pay more per day than most places but that is the ONLY thing good about PPD in my experiences. Heck, on the first dose day I had 17 blood draws and they won't even give you a catheter! And they have inexperienced lab techs poking around your trying to find your vein. The place is hardly worth the hassle and one of the most unethical organizations I have ever dealt with. If this was a "normal" business they would have been out of business a LONG time ago.

[mike]

Yeah that's business as usual at PPD, they boot people from studies or inconvenience them or act irresponsibly towards them on a whim and they make no apologies for it.
It's PPD's world, you're just a squirrel trying to get a nut.

[vark]

disfunctional yes. i can't even screen there because a recruiter deliberately misunderstood what i was telling her and put me on a do not recruit list. but can you clarify for me which ethical principles they are violating?

edit: it turns out i wasn't really on do not recruit list like they told me, just restricted from certain studies. but for years i didnt go there because they told me i couldn't, when i could.

[mike]

Well, I would say they behave in a way that is mildly immoral or at least highly inconsiderate, but to say they are being unethical is a higher bar; many people conflate the meanings of morality and ethics; or they think that because a business acts like a dick towards them that it means they are unethical. There are many, many obnoxious and worse things that a professional or a business can get away with without violating their ethics.

[travelingrat]

i am a bit confused here. Merriam Webster defines "ethical" as "conforming to accepted standards of conduct."

www.businessdictionary.com offers this: "Ethical behavior tends to be good for business and involves demonstrating respect for key moral principles that include honesty, fairness, equality, dignity, diversity, and individual rights."

it seems to me that Werterther was treated in deceptive and unfair ways. if PPD said that if he passed all the labs, the VIV pass would insure that he get into the study, then imo they were UN-ethical to tell him at the last minute, oh, too bad. they already knew he was not local.

it is wrong for the clinics to push us around this way. and in my experience, clinics that treat their participants well, seem to attract persons who are not trouble-makers and are eager to comply with rules and see a study through to completion, getting to blood draws on time, not constantly complaining, etc. the clinics who mistreat participants and look the other way when rules are broken, often get what they deserve in quality of participants. the now defunct Celerion Neptune is an example of that ... they took just about anyone and ended up with having to call the cops to break up fights, install a walk-through metal detector, etc. i think the businessdictionary site is correct to say, "Ethical behavior tends to be good for business...")

werterther, if you read this, i suggest you write a detailed account of their treatment of you and send it to the IRB for PPD. i myself have not had much luck with IRB's, but apparently a few persons on this forum have. if they do not intend to honor VIV passes, they should not distribute them.

sad that this happened to you and best wishes for better clinic experiences, from traveling rat.

[travelingrat]

also i just now read the post from Squeeker from a few weeks ago, "Sponsors dropped PPD over the winter." i have not been to PPD but it seems that they are arrogant and sloppy too ... well what goes around, comes around. too bad, we need all the clinics we can get but not ones that do not care about their volunteers.

[mike]

Apr 12, 2015 8:08:03 GMT -5 travelingrat said:

i am a bit confused here. Merriam Webster defines "ethical" as "conforming to accepted standards of conduct."

www.businessdictionary.com offers this: "Ethical behavior tends to be good for business and involves demonstrating respect for key moral principles that include honesty, fairness, equality, dignity, diversity, and individual rights."

I don't want to turn this thread into the comments section of every youtube video but if you look at the word "tends" in your sentence, it puts a gency on everything that follows it; none of those things are inherent, or I would even say common, in ethical behavior. That sounds like some kind of PC, rainbow coalition, happy horsecrap that has been clamped on to the meaning of ethical.

Your first sentence is more accurate. And unfortunately, in this industry, PPD's conduct is pretty standard.

This philosopher explains it concisely:Peter Singer
The root word refers to "customs".

Notice the picture he uses to illustrate the page:



Why would he use this picture here? Because the priest is behaving ethically; it was accepted and normal and even desirable for them to sacrifice people and cut their hearts out.

I find a good way to think of the real meaning of ethical is in the legal sense, if a person violates their ethics it typically s them up to legal consequences, e.g. a car salesman can be misleading and deceptive to a degree but if he outright lies about the car then you can sue or at least get a judge to force him to take the car back and return your money.

[mike]

And I agree with trying the IRB with irresponsible and flaky clinics, But I'm thinking the best way to get their attention is by public shaming; post about it here on JALR (you know that the managers and executives of the clinics are aware of this site); post on their facebook pages, the more potential volunteers you can reach the better.

[mike]

Uninteresting perhaps. Perhaps this is why so many people don't get it, including you as illustrated in your first sentence. Or maybe they are some combination of lazy and substandard IQ.

"Incredible number of words" is a bit of an hysterical exaggeration.

And it's no labor at all, thank you, I don't mind debating with ignorant people every now and then.

Anyone can google anything. They still need to provide a modicum of brainpower and effort to understand it.

I smell a familiar troll here, I guess you just can't keep away.
I'll play with you for a while.

[vark]

"Shorter version: Paul Clough is no Robert Helms,"

that part's true at least technically. what is helms up to these days? i've never been able to reach him. his book and zine guinea pig zero is the classic bible of lab ratting. Some guy I was talking to said we should write a book about being lab rats. I'm not much of a writer of longer-form stuff, but would there be any interest in an anthology? maybe many of us here have stories to tell,and time to kill while in studies.



and this site is no volunteer's friend.

oh this site has been my friend. i've been doing this about 7 years, made over 100K, couldn't have done it without paul and the site. very glad i havent had to go back to working for a living. i much prefer being a rat. oh incidentally Peter Singer is one of the people I studied under, back when I was an applied ethicist.



"i still believe that giving someone a VIV pass and then telling him that in his case, it will not be accepted, even though they already knew that he was not local, is not ethical. but if that word does not fit, i guess low-down, unfair, and slimy will do. "

I'm not saying you are wrong, i was just looking for clarifiction.

[travelingrat]

i still believe that giving someone a VIV pass and then telling him that in his case, it will not be accepted, even though they already knew that he was not local, is not ethical. but if that word does not fit, i guess low-down, unfair, and slimy will do.

i am trying hard to go only to clinics that have high standards. i will not be trying out at PPD any time soon!

re this jalr site: i have also found it to be "my friend" as well and i am extremely grateful for it.

[lm89]

PLEASE CALL ME ASAP
URGENT LAWSUIT
PPD JUST VIOLATED MY PRIVACY
BREACH OF FORMS
210 347 4402
I don't care call me restricted
Very time critical !!!
It's feb 9 522pm now 2016

[lm89]

Met PAUL IN LAST STUDY
PLEASE HELP
HE MAYBE ABLE TO GIVE ME ADVICE
ANYONE PLEASE CALL
210 347 4402

[antecubital]

Feb 10, 2016 18:35:56 GMT -5 bentham said:

Paul doesn't care, & he only looks at the forum when a clinic calls & s him to delete soing.

Paul, thanks for keeping the forum up. But yeah, it is kind of irritating when the clinics keep getting more and more of the upper hand.

[smiling4areason]

Seriously, the original poster is a douche and maybe a few others are too. I swear people seem to have no grasp of how this industry works and every time they don't get their way it's PPD's fault or 's fault, or Covance or boohoo. WANKERS.

YES I'm going to be blunt and try to slap some sense into you and if I knew you, I'd say it in person.

Look,

A: I've gotten pulled 10 minutes before dose due to low pulse on a screening ECG when my pulse rate on vitals was in range. The doctor may have reviewed it and said it's not significant but at the last second the sponsor may say "you know what, drop him" that's the way it goes. IT SUCKS, I KNOW! But it's not unethical, it's not a plot against you. It's SCIENCE and BUSINESS.

B: AND GOD ALMIGHTY THIS IS IMPORTANT! PPD has always welcomed Out of Towners, but that is in danger of coming to an end. WHY? Because you out of towners are F-ing it up. BE WARNED, STOP NOW & STOP OTHERS IF THIS MATTERS TO YOU. When you scream and moan about how much you spent to travel, or worse, you don't return for your OPVs, you are lighting a fire under one of the best bridges you'll ever have. Let's not make PPD like Quintines, or one of the may others with traveling participant restriction. Some of you may remember when 2 idiots ruined Glendale for the rest of us back in 2015 (Glendale, one of the most relaxed clinics ever). If you don't the know the story of why Glendale stopped taking OT'ers here's it is...two people, a guy from Canada and a chick from the states, failed a screening and proceed to piss and moan for about 2 hours, at the clinic, in the lobby, out front, back and forth, about the costs of travel, about how unfair this was that they failed screening and shouting "we're calling the sponsors" and "we're contacting IRB" and "Sign my petition" WTF?! shove your "petition" up your whowho. Hour's later the ax came down, the call went out, locals only from here on. Thanks Canada and chick who did 2 other studies, you ruined a good thing for hundreds of other people.

Werterther, please, don't come here, you will just ruin it & I'm sure I don't like you very much. I understand, anyone to thick to even grasp studies, has very few option, but maybe panhandling it more for you.

Call me a troll, call me a flamer. If you know me, you know I'm not a jerk, but I get tired of this foolish stance people take. I used to keep my mouth shut, but once I saw first hand how my opportunities in Glendale where dashed by this exact attitude, it became my problem, it became all of our problem, you're not only sh*tting on your own money, you're SH!TTING on all of our money. If PPD was truly unethical, I'd have you're back, but the only people screaming that are people who fail screening or get knock out for things they themselves have caused. For those people the study life isn't for you. Move on and save us all the headaches that you cause. My guess, when they called you last minute about the pulse (that was sh1tty, no doubt, but that's life) you screamed and screamed about travel costs, then when it came time to almost check in for the next study, someone from the original team saw your name and said, hey, this guy is trouble, you might not want to use him. They have the right to pick and choose, contrary to what some seem to think, this is not an entitlement, it's a selection process -- "YOU AREN'T GUARANTEED TO BE IN THE STUDY UNTIL YOU DOSE" and even then, you can get your a$$ thrown out.
I don't kiss CRU a$$, I think we're under paid, but soings are what they are and they are for good reasons. Cowboy up.

AND similar to the travel issue, if you're wondering why more and more studies are requiring us to sit in the procedure room for hours on end, again, thank the knuckle heads who are constantly late for blood draws and other procedures. We ignored it, figuring it's not our problem, now we all end up sitting in the procedure room for 8 hours because of people in the past spoiling the pot and making sponsors and CRUs institute stricter policies to maintain study integrity. It's cause and effect. Almost no clinic wants be overly restrictive. Every rule we have that you hear and think WHY? Was a result of some dumb a$$e$ missing procedures or sneaking in candy bars and pills, or a hundred other things people try to get over on, that could taint the results of the study, that can't be allowed. It's not summer camp, it's science. So thanks to a handful of idiots, we all get a blanket restriction. Man, we'd have so much more freedom, studies would be so much easier, if guys/gals looked at this as a job instead of some entitlement, if we all tried to understand how science & data collection works and that our making money, is only a side effect of the sponsor making money. When people say how unethical the sponsor or CRU is, imagine how flabbergasted the sponsor are, how unethical they see all of us as, when they are paying someone $7500 for 24 day + 2 opvs, and you don't show for you opv as you agreed to do or you bring f#cking candy bars into the study & throw off your glucose and still expect to get paid. Then they, like you are doing, say "they're all bad, they're all idiots" tighten the belt, if they don't like it tough $hit.

And as for clinics getting the upper hand, it's not a war, the only things that matter -- are we safe & are we making enough money. But with the wrong attitude it sure starts to feel like a war, over petty things. There are bad attitudes from hourly employees as well as study participants. If you want a better experiences don't encourage either. Do you know any staff? I do, I know staff at every clinic I frequent and they are just people, like us, trying to pay their bills, and make it through the day without being sh&t on by some pr!ck. The techs are not there for you to vent on, they are under paid, under appreciated and spread to thin. Yeah, at the top, PHARMA, they don't give a shLt, the pharma only cares about profit, they will HAPPILY PAY US, AS LONG AS THEY GET WHAT THE WANT. But on the day to day end, the techs, recruiters & coordinators, they are just people, like us. The recruiters have a job to do, fill the study with people who will be most likely to see it through to completion. Be that person and you'll be in studies, the one who they can count on, it's that simple. F*ck!ng smile or at least don't ruin everyone's day, be on time and get paid, that's it. Now you have the "magical formula" use it or move on.

I know I'll be getting bashed, "I'm a Meanie" but I also know that for every bash, there are dozens of silent people who know what I'm talking about and agree.


PS -Im89. Violated your HIPPA, let me guess, you were study hopping. You got caught. Nowb the 30 day rule is stupid and it's a blank rule, but it is a rule, a rule imposed by the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT and if a clinic hears you're jumping or stacking studies, they have -- ARE YOU READY ?-- AN ETHICAL RESPONSIBILITY TO INVESTIGATED THIS AND PROTECT YOUR HEALTH BASED ON CURRENT FDA STANDARDS. If you choose to study stack, the fine print is that if it's a health and safety issue, they can share limit info with other clinics. And as for Paul somehow being responsible to come provide you with legal advise...smh...I guess providing this forum isn't enough, now he needs to stop his life and come be your savior. YOU MY DEAR SIR ARE AN IDIOT! The man owes you nothing. I see Paul a couple times a year, we don't talk, I'm sure he'd say hi if I initiated it, but I don't feel he owes me a hello or anything else. This site ed my eyes to a world of opportunity almost 10 years ago, he's done more than enough for me AND YOU.

PSS**Please use biodiesel to set me on fire, I'm all earth conscious and stuff.